Posted by Captain Nathan Miller (TECH) in Change

Posted by Captain Katy Darrah (CMM) in Change

Posted by Gene Gibbs in Change
Posted by… suppressed (7) by the Post Ghost! 👻
I would like to take a moment to wear my heart on my sleeve and speak open and honestly. I really do like Star Fleet and I like writing on this site. That said, I also have been on this site long enough to know that what I’m about to say is not going to be liked.

Firstly, the politics and bureaucracy on this site is baffling to me. It feels nearly impossible to break into due to the decades long history of command and whatever the eddicts are. It’s kinda cool that this system was made and worked for so long. That said, the system in place now feels more oppressive and frankly depressing. Any discussion of change is often shot down by individuals who have been with the site forever and who are the most active in site politics and thus can swing their virtual weight around. Leaving the people who desire change or discussion to either leave the site or stick to their small cliques within the site.

Secondly, some individuals have talked to me about how very few people get involved with site politics and fewer still who are willing (or able) to take staff positions. Being frank, if the vast majority of site writers don’t care and do not get involved then what is the point? If the barrier to entry requires treating this site like a second job and that job is populated by people who like things the way they are and will use their influence to get their way then the whole thing is meaningless. What is the point?

Is not the purpose of the system to ensure that all voices within the club are heard? This isn’t a democracy. This is an Oligarchy and I am an adult who works 40 hours a week. I do not want to come home and work a second job for free. I want write. This is a Star Trek roleplay site. Yes, this site has a marvelous and long history but can we please stop taking it so seriously? This is a small portion of the internet. And being the longest standing Star Trek roleplay on the web means nothing if people don’t want to stay and be apart of the site.

And lastly, I must bring up the whole process of becoming a GM. I would love to be a GM but goddamn the process to becoming a GM sends me running. Again. I am a tax-paying adult with a full time job. I like writing. I have tons of ideas. But making me work what is essentially a part-time job or internship so I could tell some stories on a Star Trek roleplaying website is exhausting.

I would suggest the following system. If someone wants to be a GM let them submit a plot for a short main sim. Give them a Gm supervisor and let them run their sim on whatever ship. At the end, the crew and the GM supervisor write a review/evaluation. If the evaluation is good then let that person run another sim without GM supervision. Then just let crews keep writing evaluations at the end. So long as the crew is happy then that person can keep running sims.

If the reviews aren’t as good then let the GM work with the hopeful GM some more. Maybe co-write a SIM or supervise another sim with some more gentle guidance. Have it so that the supervisor GM can step in and take over should the person trying out for GM poof.

Abigail

There’s actually a good reason for the GMT program: Have you ever written on a game outside the club? They’re highly disorganized. Plus, a GM here has powers that are very powerful. Like Voiding posts that are overly disruptive or off topic (i.e. a character posts that they shoot Major NPC #1 when Major NPC #1 had only just said hello) or even issuing Death Notices to players who routinely put their characters in harms way or have them do insanely stupid things.

Secondly, while you might have great ideas, they might not actually work. One thing I was taught to do (and really should have done for this last GMT I ran) is make an outline. What’s the beginning of the sim look like? The middle? The ending? What possible roadblocks are there to the sim? Where can people completely miss clues? Where do I need to put in a side plot? What is each department’s main job going to be? What might I need to be flexible on?

A good idea is just that: an idea. 85% of ideas probably won’t work as well as you think. Remember, players don’t always go where you want them to or do what you expect. You might expect Ens Ramos to run a sensor scan of the asteroid, but if there’s a ship known to be in the asteroid belt, the asteroid might go unnoticed, or they might not care. Sometimes you literally have to smack players in the face with important information.

Sometimes you have to use NPCs to advance the plot because there’s no characters in a specific department. Sometimes the crew will ignore your hook all together, or completely derail your main sim by focusing on a side plot.

Your idea for a GM program is literally the second part of the GMT program. You’re assigned a GM mentor (a GM with a lot of experience) who’s job it is to help you and coach you in running a sim as a GM. But you can’t do that until you know what you can and cannot do as a GM.

As for your other points, it’s something I’ve said before: there’s an elitism complex among many (admitedly not all) of the older members who want people with experience as their assistants, however, there’s also a problem with members of the club who are newer who never try which is why, honestly, these complaints even hold water.

If someone tried by submitting, say, a cabinet assistant application when they came open, they may not get it. This time. But they’ve put their name out there. Now, if the cabinet member needs a new assistant, or, in the case of Pdept, a second assistant, they are known to be interested. This also factors in for the next director who might ask if there were any promising new candidates for assistant from the previous director.

Just because it’s all “old people” doesn’t mean those old people aren’t willing to train. I would’ve never gotten to be a CO if and older member hadn’t taken a chance with me as their XO. I’d have never gotten to be an AFComm if I hadn’t taken a chance with an application.

My point for this section: yes, it’s work. Nothing on this site in terms of major position is going to be handed to someone with no experience, but unless newer members put themselves out there for training, they’re never going to get the experience. So the problem is a degree of elitism, yes, but it’s also on the new members for not applying to the positions that are available to them.

Capybara

Thank you for responding Capybara! I appreciate your reply.

In response to your statements about the GM program. For someone who have never run a tabletop game or ran a multiplayer roleplay scenario then the first part of the current GM program can be very useful. That said, I believe that it is not needed for everyone. I also feel that it is disingenuous to call games run outside the club as “disorganized” and that the vast majority of ideas are bad. Yes, not all roleplay game ideas are winners but that’s why you work on them and improve them until they are ready.

I am not suggesting that every sim idea someone has is viable. Nor should there not be some sort of system in place to ensure that potential GMs are creating sims up to the standards of the site. That is where the GM supervisor comes in. I do not believe that every player will need to submit what is essentially an essay and go through an intensive process to prove themselves. I would also point that that no GM can ever truly prepare for any scenario. Simply writing out “well, things could go wrong here and here” or “if my players go way out of hand then I can do this” would ever really prepare and potential GM. I make outlines for my tabletop games but outlines can only help so much. If a GM needs help then we should have mentors that can help them but not all GMs need that much help.

As for the GM powers. First time GMs can run their first sims without those powers. Have the mentor GM hold onto those powers and utilize them as needed until the potential GM proves themselves.

And in response to the politics of the club. I believe my points still stand. That breaking into the higher rankings of the clubs requires time and effort. This site is very hard to navigate for new players. It’s hard to find the archives of past decisions, elections. The site itself doesn’t really make these things available unless you really go digging for them.

You said that new members don’t try. Is that not a huge red flag? An indicator that something is wrong? Rather than saying “well if they wanted change things then they should be applying themselves to the current system” We should be saying “Why aren’t people engaging with a core feature of the site? What barriers are preventing new members from stepping up?” It doesn’t matter how many older people are willing to train or mentor someone the system in place is not desirable. People don’t want to take part in complex politics on Star Trek roleplay site! Or take the time to campaign for themselves when they just want to write.

I am one of those new players. Though I’ve been with site for two years now I still consider myself new. I know this site has difficulties retaining new writers. We need to stop blaming new members for not trying to work with a system that is daunting. I still believe there are parts of this site that takes itself too seriously and treats admin positions like a second job while offering very little in return.

Abigail

Abigail, I want to first commend you on your courage to post your thoughts and musing here on this channel. I know it’s not an easy thing to do, however, it’s the best way to put your grievances about the club out there and it allows others to weigh in with their perspective.
I think Capybara has some really great points. I am not sure how anyone ever expects to hold command, cabinet, or senior positions in the club if they don’t apply for them. As to why new members don’t apply, well that’s subjective. There must be a certain level of ambition and dedication to apply for these roles in the first place. If you are afraid, for whatever reason, to take a step and apply for a new opening, then maybe you are not ready, and the role isn’t right for you. I say this from my own perspective as a person who manages and coaches people in real-life.
I think there are opportunities for everyone in the club if they want them. As a player and member who has only been active since June of last year (I have been in the club since 2017 but I left in 2018ish and returned this past June), I am not one of the popular ones. I know most people on this site by their characters and I only talk to a few people regularly on Discord. You have to apply for openings when they became available. I even hesitated sometimes, especially when I returned last June, and I am a pretty confident person, but then I was like “Why not me?”, I think I can do that, and I applied and left it there. I was willing to accept the possibility that I might not get chosen because someone had someone else in mind or they thought I wasn’t a good enough writer. If I wasn’t chosen, I did make it a point to ask, Why didn’t you choose me? That way I know what I need to work on the next time I apply for something. With anything you do nowadays, it is all about networking, you need to have the confidence to reach out to people you don’t know, inquire, put yourself out there, and figure out what steps to take to move up in the club, if that’s what you want.
I took a chance on a few vacant postings and reached out to people I had never talked to before to see if they needed a writer for one of their openings. Some of them panned out and some didn’t….that’s okay, the point is that I put myself out there so people knew I was interested. Fun Fact, I was NOT the first choice to Command the Leviathan! However, someone thought I should have a chance and paired me up with an experienced member of the club to help me with my first CO posting. if I had not applied it would have never happened.
The last thing I want to say is that often these postings go out and no one applies for them. It’s an opportunity missed for a new player who is interested in moving up in the club.

Mika Jackson

I just wanted to say the reason I see the so called ‘elitist’ group in here is almost because of a self-fulling line in and of itself. Folks don’t step up in positions because they don’t feel they can… so no one does… so a few seem to stay on top. Which means folks don’t apply thinking they can’t… which leaves the SAME few on top… and so on and so forth.

It took me talking to my CO about how to become one that set me on my Captain course. Same with FCOMM… I wanted to know how it worked (cause I had trouble making sense of it) and now I’m on my third (I think) round as FCOMM.

Yes, I agree some things are a bit hard to find if you just poke around. But if you ask someone, you will sometimes find it makes sense and is actually pretty easy.

For GM, yes, sometimes the training seems daunting. But no, it’s not meant to be a second job. Or even a first. What it is supposed to do it show you the ins and outs and the nitty gritty. And the timelines and deadlines for posting, etc are one of the things that made this the longest running site. Folks don’t join, make a post then wait for someone to decide when they want to write back. Yes, it’s true we have timelines, but in 30+ yrs of online playing, this site has been best BECAUSE of the writing deadlines. I’m not waiting months for a response because “I’ll get to it when I can”.

To be honest, if folks would come in, talk to other players and be social, nearly 90% of what folks complain about would go away.

Just my two cents.

Meli the Mobstress

Is STF a hobby or a job? Should it have no structure or be extremely structured? Should it not be taken seriously at all or be taken very seriously? With all these questions there is a spectrum and the answer lies somewhere in between one extreme or the other. Not everyone is going to see it the same way and there are at least a couple systems in place that accommodate that. When a new member joins they can go through the training of the Academy or they can bypass it and they have a choice as to whether or not they have a mentor. There’s a standard structure for ships, but also alternate roleplaying areas where there is more flexibility of the structure, like on the ships that Mika was mentioning. Or if someone wants to entirely bypass the system of structure in place they can create an X-Fleet ship and have it look however they want and try things they normally wouldn’t be able to.

All of the structure that is in place, and unquestioningly it is daunting, is there because somebody at some point thought it was a good idea. So it’s not surprising that when someone new suggests doing something differently then someone else will argue for the status quo and explain why they like things how there are. It’s important to keep in mind that everybody wants to do what is best for the club and people will just have different perspectives on what that is.

Adam W.

As one of the older members of the Club I see Abigail’s point. BTW Adam well spoken. I know all the rules we, including me, have come up with seem daunting. However I have always leaned toward a more a less rules oriented and restrictive system. I get the risk. But as BA in TB always said, No Risk it No Biscuit. What does decentralization look like? X Fleet? Maybe but I have always felt X Fleet was not the answer. A good experiment but not the answer and not much of it ever moved over to the main ships where the idea was to beta test some ideas there and then see if they would work.

As to the GM I know there is a big value in all that has been built. However I tend support Abigail. I have seen GMs go through the whole training and deliver horrible results. I have seen a good CO take the reins and deliver great results with no GM training etc. Most GMs don’t stay on a plan as far as time limits go. I’m not saying trash the system but deregulate it might be an idea as is kinda being suggested by Abigail.

Club politics? Haha. Man this is a utopian dream compared to what we used to do to each other. Anyone remembers the TJ/Sidney/Jack/Larry/Joe etc etc battles would consider this Pax STF. However I do agree that the Club stifles the desire of new players to jump in. I say lets put up or shut up. Lets have a round where no one who has ever had a position puts in for a leadership role and lets see what happens. Or half the positions. Designate VP etc etc as roles only for a person who has never held it. Lets see what happens. No one puts in? Someone puts in and new blood and new ideas come forth? I don’t know.

Bottom line is we need more players and all of our discussions tend to be related to the problems not having them creates. Maybe new blood and energy will create a new beginning. Not sure. My two cents worth.

Sidney

Hi Abigail,

I’ll dip my furry toe into your mention about the GM process and that darn ‘exam’. It is not as onerous as it might look. The first part is simple regurgitation of the couple of GM documents. The point of it to me is just to see that the prospective GM has actually read them and the questions there are to show that the person understands them. The second part, for the most part, is the meat and potatoes of the exam and what would be the SIM the GMT runs. So in that regard it is not a waste but allows you to plot your good ideas in a way that would help you see whether it is a good idea that would work or one that was, well, a nice idea. As has been mentioned, not all ideas for a SIM will work here.

What I do with any GM exam submission is work with the person to detail out their idea in a way that could work here as well as provide (hopefully) useful tips and helps along the way. I don’t work on the basis of a pass/fail end as much as work with the person until we’re both satisfied that there is a working SIM that is thought out and prepared. Now once you are cut loose you can be a light or as detailed as you like on your sims - the exam and GMT is there for you to get your feet wet on the flow of doing a sim and doing one’s best to keep everyone with something to do, and have enough of an idea of where you’re going so that the sim doesn’t stagnate for wont of not being sure where it is going.

For a person who also works full time, I find the bit of extra time to detail out the sim’s plot saves me more time in the end and less stress in the process. In short I can better enjoy it because I’ve got that jotted down. Does a SIM go the way you planned? Rarely does my Act 3 look anything like what I had originally thought but I had that skeleton down that allowed me to flesh it out as it went along. Remember too that a week of on and off sitting down to work the plot and the acts in the SIM will carry you through 6+ months of actually going through the SIM. To me that is a good investment - and is (at least to me) fun to work through the creative process of creating a story/episode/SIM.

Gene, aka Wookiee, aka GM Tutor

Adding Sage’s split reply here, it was to the same message as Gene’s:

I’d like to chime in here as GM Director. The process we have exists because an unhealthy GM relationship can destroy a ship. You are right that already having ttrpg experience behind the screen is an asset that would help a potential GM. But it isn’t the same. You can roll dice to decide how things work out, but it’s far from mandatory and I doubt even the most common practice. It’s the GM’s call, always. It’s a lot of responsibility to just give out. I try, in as many department reports as I can remember to, to include a line about “if the process of becoming a GM seems daunting, reach out to a member of GMD staff or our course tutor and we’ll help you out.”

As far as broadly being rules-heavy, I understand what you mean. But I don’t think most of us here are unwilling to help someone new learn the ropes either. Lindsay taught me a lot of what I know, particularly about the GMD bylaw. The thing about taking down some or all of the bylaws and replacing them with… something else, is what are the new rules, and how will the membership handle their implementation?

Lastly, I just want to second something that Meli said. It’s an “elite” because new people don’t enter the space very often. Shaun Tee entered the GMD, and I think he may be the only one on his first pass through government. But he’s eager, and learning, and doing a good job. Lindsay and I kind of toss being GM Director back and forth between us depending on the presidential term. But when Shaun qualifies, we both believe in him. Command itself may not be the most hospitable place, but the people in it have a lot to juggle and aren’t opposed to new people.

I do think we ought to have a space in command for those who don’t, for whatever reason, wish to take on leadership. For anyone to share ideas on how they think the club, regardless of if they’ve ever heard any kind of leadership.

-Sage

I want to touch on a point you said, Abigail.

You said that new members don’t try. Is that not a huge red flag? An indicator that something is wrong? Rather than saying “well if they wanted change things then they should be applying themselves to the current system” We should be saying “Why aren’t people engaging with a core feature of the site? What barriers are preventing new members from stepping up?” It doesn’t matter how many older people are willing to train or mentor someone the system in place is not desirable. People don’t want to take part in complex politics on Star Trek roleplay site! Or take the time to campaign for themselves when they just want to write.

Honestly? those positions aren’t a “core part of the site” the highest position that’s at the core? CO. Maybe could argue FComm, but CO is a guarantee. And why should a new player apply for a position when it appears that only experienced members are getting said positions? I WAS one of those members. I literally was asked by my CO to apply as XO when I got my first (and so far only) XO spot. I had to get his reassurances I was going to have a fair chance and wasn’t just applying for him to show he had allowed multiple people to apply.

When I got my CO spot (on the now-defunct USS Constellation) I have a feeling I was the only applicant, as I had been XO for 3 months, my CO was absent for most of that and my FComm before the one that promoted me was also absent, so I had no idea what I was doing, but I was pushed to apply, and again, needed reassurances I wasn’t a throwaway app.

I have a feeling that, because new members aren’t approached about it, and when you’re seeing people get these positions with long time in the club, that you’re less likely to apply for them, even if the application says no experience required, because you feel like a throwaway app. Which does need to change, yes. But there also needs to be a push from the Prez and Veep to encourage FComms/cabinet to not just post a news item, but approach new members who may want to apply, and to genuinely consider those candidates.

And by “new” I obviously (hopefully!) mean people who haven’t done those positions before.

Capybara

There have been some great replies, but I want to ask something that I haven’t seen get asked: what brought this up? I was surprised by it, because we haven’t had an in-depth discussion in Command in a while. What kinds of change(s) have you wanted to discuss that you feel have been given short-shrift?

Speaking to the bureaucracy, and the “what is the point of it”… I can tell you from experience that nearly every line of these bylaws exists to, in some way, ensure that people have fun writing in the club. Part of that is making that goal the responsibility of certain people - COs are responsible for making their ship a fun, welcoming, and active roleplaying area; FComms are responsible for making sure COs are following up on that; the Prez is responsible for making sure FComms are following up on that. COs aren’t just playing the captain of a vessel; they’re actually having to coordinate threads, make sure people have tasks to do in the main sim, keep people involved and out of AWOL, mediate personal disputes - for between 8 to 18 people based on current rosters. FComms and AFComms should be reading through ships making sure that is happening, and providing reports to the Prez on the state and health of ships monthly. Not everyone wants that kind of responsibility, but we need it to make sure this remains a fun place to write.

We’ve seen that prove true time and again. When you have an absent, lax, or inactive CO, we see an absent or inactive crew. When you have an absent, lax, or inactive FComm, we see lax standards, more AWOLs, and fewer reports - which are what help the Prez determine ship and fleet health and bring to light people that the Prez and FComms maybe should keep an eye on for positions in the future.

As a counter to the “new people don’t want to step up” - most of the recent CO appointments have been to members being newly promoted to Captain - at least 7 in the last 2-ish years - and the application process used by FComms gives anyone an opportunity to show interest; there was a time the FComm/Prez just chose someone, which led to a lot of people being overlooked. For Cabinet level appointments half of our FComms are relative newcomers to the position. PDept is training new people with the knowledge to carry that work on. EDept has a newcomer as AEDir. As mentioned the GMD is training up a new person in that department.

On the GM front: We ran the GMD the way you’re suggesting for a while. I actually have a fairly unique perspective here, as I’m probably one of the few people who remember before we had a GM exam, or the GMT program. It was… not good. It was not fun for anyone involved when someone just couldn’t hack it - the players or the bad GM. We gradually evolved to the current system. First we added the GMT program - you applied, someone from the GMD would read your posts across the fleets, and decide if you would be a good candidate, then a mentor would help you with a sim. The problem is that what makes people good writers and roleplayers don’t necessarily make good GMs; there’s a lot more that goes into it. The exam was put in place as a filter, to make sure people understood the rules and responsibilities of being a GM and could plot a coherent sim. The GMT program is basically as you described - once we know they have an understanding, now we need to see them execute, under the supervision of an experienced, licensed GM, before we let them run off wild into the rest of the club. Remember that COs have approval of GMs, and not everyone will be comfortable with what is essentially a “test run” - and the exam filter helps ease that concern a lot. It’s not just “Oh, John wants to run a sim, can he do it on your ship”, it’s “John wants to run a sim and has exhibited adequate knowledge so we we believe him capable of doing so, can he run it on your ship?” One of those has a much higher likelihood of a positive outcome for everyone involved.

I don’t think the idea of removing the exam is bad per se, but I feel like losing that filter of understanding would be giving up candidate quality for candidate quantity, and the extra work that goes along with it, namely more places and people to run GMTs, and our previous experience with an examless GMD speaks to reasons for having it.

I, for one, am glad to see you engaging.

Sincerely,

Nathan

One comment from the peanut gallery:

Is not the purpose of the system to ensure that all voices within the club are heard? This isn’t a democracy. This is an Oligarchy and I am an adult who works 40 hours a week. I do not want to come home and work a second job for free.

I am sure many of us are adults who work 40+ hours a week. As one of those senior members STF is like my third priority or maybe 5th. Depends on how you define priorities. I certainly don’t put another 40 hrs into the club. I put maybe… 5? Before Sage and Linds bounced around with GMDir, I was in that mix, too, and Linds and I made a concerted effort to bring in Sage, so that one of us could not be GMDir all the time.

But to your first point… It isn’t a democracy. In my time here, it never has been. It is an elected benevolent dictatorship, with a board of control (EGO). Actually when you get right down to it, our system of government has more in common with the Soviet Union than the United States. I digress, however.

Our system of government has never been a democracy. If it is an oligarchy, I am probably one of those oligarchs and while I can’t speak for all of us (as I don’t know who they all are), speaking for myself: I am tired. I would gladly hand off any of my government responsibilities that remain if someone showed a modicum of passion.

Geoff, Professional Has-been.